Bang on! This is where I'm at the moment. The worst thing for me is 'God! I don't know what to say!'. I can go in without worrying about what to say as there's enough going through my mind let alone what words are about to come out my mouth. So I will fake it till I make it!

Sound's to me that canned openers have served a purpose for you but it doesn't mean you have to lose them completely.

You said last week that you eject to quick... This happened to me last week too... so your post resonates with me at the moment.

I'm sure I can open pretty easy (with a crutch at the moment). Has anyone got any advice on how to progress are the initial 2 - 3 minute approach? Are there any posts someone can direct me to?

Tonight was frustrating. I opened a handful of sets. 4 or 5 probably. But I didn't stay in any set for any amount of time. I failed to use non-canned non-opinion openers.

Worse, I had a massive bout of AA. My wing spied a 4 set, proper gorgeous girls, short tight skirts, the lot. He said to open them. 'With what?' I asked. I said I'd open them in a minute... And I just stood there. 3 minutes later, they walked away. Chance missed. And worse, I was left angry with myself. What was going to go wrong if I opened them?

I did get a number close, although it was from a girl who was part of a three set that one of my wings opened. I didn't have any problem hitting for her number, that was easy.

But I'm just not opening very well right now. Tonight when I opened, I didn't feel confident. I sort of feel lethargic with opening right now. I need to burst out of this. How? Fuck knows.

Look, the best night I've ever had sarging was a night when I opened absolutely everyone. Almost literally, there was hardly a set that went by that I didn't open. I was supreme that night, and got the results to show for it.

Since then, my game has almost become lazy. I'm not putting the level of effort in that I really should be putting in. I think I need to get myself back in that frame of opening fucking everything I see. No excuses. Fat, thin, gorgeous or not, just fucking open.

Open everything.

My sticking points are now as follows:

1. Openers - opinion openers funnel me into narrow conversations which I don't know how to move onto actual conversation.
2. When I do get into a conversation with a girl, I don't actually know what I'm doing. There's never any thought to 'Ok, I'm now going to disqualify myself' or 'I'm currently building rapport' or 'I am escalating more into kino now' or 'Lets qualify her'. None of that. I think I need to structure my game a little better. I need to actually think about why I'm saying what I'm saying to a girl. What is its purpose? What goal do I want it to achieve?

I feel like I've hit a bit of a wall again. I'll ruminate on this tomorrow, and see how I get on tomorrow night. But right now, I feel pretty frustrated.

Last night there was a two set of 9s in the corner of the bar. No one was approaching. They were well off in one corner and there was no way to avoid a very visible blow out if it went that way.

To add to that not only had I my wing but we had hooked up with a group of non pua friends. I could see this future of me being blown out spectacularly in front of everyone.
It took me a few minutes to nut up, but then, I turned to my wing said "watch this" and strode over.

I opened, I talked, they laughed, pure gold.

Then the little voice in my head started screaming at me "You're going to run out of things to say, you're going to run out of things to say" This is impossible I can talk like a mofo.

But like a bitch, for no good reason, after doing all the hard work I got up and left.

Sometimes the voice gets the better of us.

Learning is not a liner progression. You make progress, then you stall, maybe even move back a step. The trick is to keep practicing while others quit.

I'm going out again tonight and I bet you are too.

Fuckin damn right I am! I'm angry and pissed off, and thats often when I am at my best.

Thanks Mycroft mate, your post has cheered me up a bit

What a lovely night! My first F-close since getting back into my game. And I've gotta say, a first class piece of winging by one of the guys! This was a HB6 who I met a few weeks ago and n-closed. She was out with a friend last night. We met up with them later on, and got them back to my wings house. For a few hours my wing kept her friend busy whilst me and the HB6 had some fun. We then went back to my house, with my wing still taking care of her friend. I've gotta say this was top class stuff - without that winging, I wouldn't have got laid last night. I owe him one.

This was also my first sex in six months, since splitting up with my ex. It's good to have broken that duck - another little chunk of moving on out the way.

Elsewhere in general game, last night all round felt better for me. I opened sets a little easier, and I stayed in them. Now, this is now the bit where I'm going to court puaforum.co.uk criticism, but after a few nights of being frustrated, I stepped back and thought through my game. I spent yesterday reading through a few bits of literature. And in particular, I read parts of Juggler Method and Magic Bullets.

It struck me reading through both that my game for the last few weeks has lacked any structure. PUA is about self improvement, and becoming a person who can naturally recognise and predict social events. But to get to that stage, you need some help.

Previously, I had been using a canned opener, and then just floating aimlessly into conversations with girls. I was getting frustrated with this. It wasn't bearing results.

Juggler Method recommends the use of some structure to your game - having various stages you want to go through, and knowing when you're in each stage. Magic Bullets, of course, recommends routine. Now, I appreciate the problems with routines and canned stuff which people on this forum have. And quite right too - it isn't interacting with a girl, but just saying stuff to her.

Interacting with a girl involves listening to what she says, and then basing your reaction on what she says. In an interaction, the actions of one agent directly affects the actions of another agent.

From this point of view, a routine based approach isn't an interaction. The girl can react in any way she likes, and it doesn't affect what you're going to say or do next. You just move onto the next part of your routine.

Long term, this isn't a style of game I want to pursue. However... Right now, I have much to learn. At the moment, my natural style of game is not productive. I open, and then float into a conversation. I have noticed that in a conversation with a girl, I instinctively go way over the top taking the piss out of her. To the point almost where I tool her for everything she says. I need to learn new ways of talking to girls, I need to learn new modes to speak through.

So, last night, I made a decision: During my learning process, I am going to incorporate various pieces of routine into my game.

An analogy: I've played drums for 16 years, since the age of about 10. For a few years in my early twenties, I was a part time drum teacher, on a Sunday morning in my back room charging beginner drummers £6 for a half hour lesson (hopelessly cheap, but at my peak I had 8 students got me a good wedge for a Sunday morning of easy work!).

Now, after 16 years of drumming, I am obviously pretty good on the drums. I am in a band and play regularly. When we rehearse or even play live, at the beginning of every song, I only have a very rough idea of what I'm going to do through the song. I've reached a level of drumming where improvisation is natural for me. I just play and see what comes out - and usually (hopefully!) its pretty good.

But, that isn't how you learn drums. When a beginner sits down at a drum kit for the first time, I'll teach them a very simple beat, which is the staple of a standard rock beat. I'll make them sit and repeat it again, and again, and again. No variation is allowed. Anything which isn't precisely on-beat is worked on, and worked out until what is played is 100% correct to what I've written down. Then, we progress onto something slightly more complex, and repeat this process.

Then, we might decide to learn a song. We'll go through some CDs, and find a song which is simple enough that a beginner can learn it, but complex enough that he or she will learn from playing that song. And over the course of a few weeks we'll break the song down into small pieces of beats, fills, and anything else, until the whole song is learned. Then, we piece it together, and the drummer can play the whole song - but still only 100% as he or she has learned it.

Improvisation can only take place once these basic elements have been learned. Once a drummer becomes more advanced, they do away with drum music. It is restrictive, and stifles creative talent.

But my point (to this long and winding analogy!) is: when you learn something new, in the early stages, you need to have some script to work with. You need to have bits written down which you're going to use and practice with. You need to practice doing the same things over and over, until your muscle memory takes over and it becomes natural.

To bring this back to PUA - I've decided that I need to just begin to work with a few scripted bits myself. This is all part of my learning curve. And this is an important distinction to make. I am not going to learn routines in order that they can be deployed ruthlessly to the end of seducing women. I am going to use routines to practice talking to girls, to get used to the responses I get to various things, and to begin to understand the principles which underly them.

In time, I'll do away with the sheet music, and I'll begin to improvise. But for now, I need a little help.

Last night, I went out with a short routine ready to go. It was based on a canned opener (custard, of course!), followed by transitioning into a 'friends' test, followed by labelling the girls 'good', 'bad', 'dozy', 'grumpy', whatever. And from there, into conversation.

I managed to perform this routine once. And I was fine with it. I want to practice more over the next few weeks, installing variations on it each time I go out. But I have decided my game learning needs more structure, and as such, I need to make sure every time I go out I am going to try and learn something new.

There is such a long way for me to go. And the ultimate goal, of course, remains to become someone natural and direct. But these routines may just help me plot a course along the way.

...and I really don't know how I went 6 months without sex. Its such good fun!

Top bloody night last night! In total, I think I got about 8 phone numbers!

OK, so 7 of them were from guys off this forum, but that still counts. Right??

I went to Manchester last night to meet the Manchester gang - I won't name you all individually as I'm bound to forget someone, and I wouldn't want that. Suffice it to say, there were bloody millions of you!

Just before I get into the FR (which I'll keep short), just a quick word of thanks to you all for a top night, and for making a Scouse cunt feel so welcome!

Right, so, sets. I don't feel as if I opened as many sets as I might have done last night, because it was all very much out of my comfort zone. New people to meet, new places to go... Talking to girls wasn't necessarily always the first thing on my mind.

I did open a few, however. One was at the bar in Mohos. Some really drunk Irish girl and her friend. I opened them with a canned opener, but it just didn't carry through. I was having trouble making myself heard (projection! I must project!), and didn't get past the opener before they were distracted by some song that came on and ran away to dance.

Another set was outside, where Hustler and I headed for some fresh air. A mixed 4 set. K winged away the guy, and Hustler and I went in for the girls. Again, I didn't feel as if that set really clicked either. One of the girls was fucking around with a crutch she'd found (meaning somewhere in Manchester last night some poor bugger was hopping home), and I again had trouble pushing past a canned opener.

Damn canned openers. Seriously, having seen some incredible people at work last night, I feel more than ever that canned stuff is just pointless, and might actually hinder progress.

I did get a kiss close last night. Monkeybuster went into a 2 set, which I tried to help wing. He ejected after a little while, and left me talking to one of the girls. It was fun talking to her, she was a really nice girl. Jaz came over to wing her friend away, and after a few minutes leaned over my shoulder and said she was there for the taking. At that point I didn't really have any plans to kiss this girl, and told Jaz I would be coming out of the set in a minute. But it never really happened. We just kept talking. I was kinoing almost subconsciously, and she was responding. Not kissing her after that would have been like making a wonderful Sunday roast and then not eating your Yorkshire Pudding.

I love Yorkshire Pudding. So we kissed.

This was actually a conscious application of Juggler's 'statements plus questions' approach, and the 'say anything' concept. For example, at one moment conversation just waned. Arctic Monkeys started to play. I grinned and said, 'These guys are cool, They're from Sheffield huh. That's my 4th favourite city in the country. I love the accent they've got there, Full Monty is an amazing film. What do you think?'

It turns out Sheffield was her 3rd favourite city in the UK. During the conversation we also spoke about history and how cool it was to study war at school (leading her to utter the unfortunate statement 'I love Hitler'. I didn't really let her forget that, and she is now in my phone rather tastelessly as Danielle Hitler), we spoke about Stockport (?), and about our preferences for body hair arrangements. I feel I've made progress in beginning to internalise this 'say anything' thing.

Usually now, I'd finish with some action points, criticism, and things to work on for next time. But I won't do that. Last night wasn't quite 100% me in terms of opening, and I was quite happy to just get to know some of the guys who were out. The excuse would be that a strange place and new people pulled me within myself a little, and as such it perhaps isn't fair to go uber critical on anything. I'll do that next time.

Anyway, it was a thoroughly enjoyable night last night, and it was great to meet up with so many top guys and to see and be part of what is a genuinely awesome Manchester community with such a diverse range of styles and abilities. I've said a lot how I wish a similar community would develop in Liverpool, open to allcomers regardless of ability. You are the benchmark we have to work towards.

Onward!

Love,
Adam

Pleasure to have met you last night mate. Good to see all the other guys as well, always a pleasure.

Great pleasure to meet you last night, we need to get our lot down to Liverpool!

Was good to put a face to the name Adam. (And a pretty face it is.. x)

Im feeling that right there, guys lets sort it out.

Covert! It was quality to meet you last night. You're a top lad. It's defo hard to go to different environments and sarge. But I actually really liked Moho. The people were a lot more open to speak to which was cool! Definately a different sort of crowd that you'd get in a 'club club'.

For me yesterday, I was more concerned about opening sets. This is where my issues lie and a fear I want to conquer. I opened a fair few. I had some success and some blow outs. I kissed closed the Irish girl that Hustler and I were chatting to as we were going in (chaching! - probably the Irish girl you said was drunk Covert! She was a bit tipsy thinking about it!), but the most interesting ones where the 'objections'

1) The girl I told to look after coats - she objected to not being the 'coat looker-after-er' so I sidestepped to say 'No problem - but if you see anyone touch it while you're standing her then let me know...' then continue with usually schpill.

2) The girl that ignored me on first attempt (you know... it happens all the time.. you speak and they act like they don't hear you) - My response was 'Oh my god... I can't believe you're ignoring me after last week?' That got her attention... She looked at me as trying to work out who I was... I made up some bullshit that I was speaking to her after last week...

Girl: 'Where did I meet you?'
Me: 'Here... blah blah blah'
Girl: 'No, that wasn't me...'
Me: 'Oh right... do you have a sister?'
Girl: 'Yeah... but she underage...'
Me: 'errrrrhhhhhh....'
Girl: '... ooookay! See ya!'

The main thing for me was I had her attention rather than being completely ignored... need to work out how to play that one better. Whoops!

Dude! Quality night! Lets do it again next month! Wooooh!

(sorry for highjacking the post!)