I feel like I do have a valid argument for this, but don't feel confident enough to find the right words. Maybe I'll get back to you on this.

I think it's fair enough having a girlfriend without having any intention of staying with her by the way, and likewise, so long as you state this from an early point, but in my experience girls tend to be ok with this until your'e out shagging other women, and then it's not cool anymore.

Let me explain my position cos I think K was referring to my other response on a thread about sleeping with a married woman. I too don't have the intention of making out wit a girl in a relationship. When I say back burner, I meant to say in a 'friendly' kinda way. I don't see anything wrong with that. The friendly weekly text of saying hello or hanging out now and again for a coffee and a chat. I have a very special hot friend who is happily married and now heavily pregnant. We have lunch together everyday. I remember approaching her 1 lunch time last year. We chatted for 1 hr. She gave me her number altho she told me she is married. Nothing else gonna happen whilst she's married, we just enjoy each other's company...!

I look forward to this.

Not sure if you're just expressing something or are still unclear on my position, just in case it is the latter ...

I don't cheat on my girlfriends. My not buying into the paradox that is marriage has nothing to do with the issue of fidelity. When I'm 'in love' (whatever we all take that to mean) I want a monogomous relationship with the object of my love. And, I would have every intention of staying with her, just no intention of marrying her.

As for girls who I am seeing casually (and honestly I love those girls too, just in a different way. I've always thought that the word love has too broad a scope which causes much confusion): It is casual so there is no agreement of monogomy. Sure some girls can get upset when the possibility becomes a reality. That's cool if it's not good for them, I wouldn't want them to continue with the relationship if they're unhappy. However, I've found that once those girls have a little distance to get a better perspective on the situation, they come back.


Peace,

kowalski

Yeah there is. BT can take you to court and attempt to get a life times worth of payments out of you, Sky TV cannot. Does that make it any more morally questionable? .....No

Fact is, as you point out, they can both take you to court for breach of contract. So the difference you highlight is not a pertinent one to the question at hand, as you also recognise.

The difference there is how much it may end up costing you, which is also analogous to the marriage example. If you are married and it goes tits, it will probably cost you more than if you are not married.

In the essential regard both situations are the same.

I don't know where I stand on this. Before joining the community I would have said getting involved with a girl in an exclusive relationship was wrong. Getting involved in all this many of your principles are challenged and you are forced to take a second look, and this left me unsure. Now I'm leaning back towards the 'it's wrong' side of things.

Ever the philosopher, I have started writing on this to help me work through the competing arguments, not finished yet though so these sorts of discussion are of particular interest to me right now.


Peace,

kowalski

I've been wrestling with this moral dilemma lately and still I don't know exactly which camp im in. I guess for me it depends on your intentions, if you know a girl is married/in a serious relationship and all you want to do is fuck her and then forget her for me that is wrong. Because your brief selfish act can be potentially destructive having long-term implications on the girl and indirectly on the guy she's with.

However I think if you genuinely like the girl and you seek a longer term investment with her and if you feel/know she likes you back then I find that more understandable to pursue. Think about it, many relationships become routine and stale after a while, the spark has gone and their relationship merely exists rather than living it to the full. That is sad. By perhaps getting involved with her whilst being mindful and respectful of her own moral dilemma allowing her to become accustomed and associated with you at her own pace is the possibly the best way to handle it.

There is no pleasant way to end a relationship. However your involvment in ending a relationship between two people could be the catalyst to allow both the girl and guy in the previous relationship to move on to better and more satisfying things. Chances are they may look back at your act and say 'That was for the best'.

We all know and see girls in relationships they are not satisfied with, they may feel compelled to stay in an unfulfilling relationship due to moral, cultural obligations or simply because there are no other offers on the table. Instead they bumble through life with blinkers on, disatisfied and repress urges and desires.

I feel sad for people in that situation. Surely as men of value we should be rescuing such damsels in distress, awakening them from their sad existence and allowing them to experience a more satisfying chapter in their lives within our reality! This is a benevolent act. If they guy has been such a chode to have not pleased his girl (or even attempted to) then he only really has himself to blame.

Say if you took a job offer in a high profile position, worked one week then another job opportunity came up which you felt was more suited to you and more satisfying. Would you take it? Bearing in mind the company that just hired you has spent time money and resources selecting you as the ideal candidate, rejecting many other potential recruits, they also have a long term vision for you in mind. You now also have contractual obligations. The sudden other job offer would be your dream job? You know you would love to do that job.

If you feel life is too short and your own satisfaction and well-being is important to you, then you will likely hand in your notice in a heart-beat. If you become too concerned about how your employer will react and the potential mess you could leave then you will probably let a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity pass you by.

I would be quite interested in hearing a couple of these competing arguments, if or when you have time. I'm also a little confused at the moment with regards to this subject. Although I still have very high value on the kind of love that is attainable in an exclusive relationship, and very much hope one day to experience it, since I have got involved in this community I have come to realise that this mind set was actually quite detrimental to myself. This thing that I believed in so strongly before, was actually just an insecure feeling, of wanting to feel more whole as a person, or whatever. Quite an eye opener!

@SJ I know exactly what you mean, I came from that mindset to. I used to look at guys who would pull girls in relationships with distain. Without wishing to sound too flipant about the moral issues in question, now I think just think 'fair enough' if she's game. In this community you hear things like 'Be the man who takes what he wants' banded about, if a guy is doing just that then good luck to him I say.

How about - in this community you hear a lot of things that if taken in isolation and as an absolute are total bullshit, like the principle in your quote.

You've probably got a nice PC Hustler. I think I want it. So I'll come round later and just take it and I guarantee your response won't be 'Good luck to you k'.

Let's remember to actually think about things rather than mindlessly trotting out the proverbial utterings of PUGs.

There's more here that I'll respond to later. Maybe someone can gather the posts so far into a new discussion thread. I'd do it myself but I'm at work right now.


Peace,

kowalski

Kowalski, I realised as soon as I'd posted that there were flaws in the quote you picked up on and I left myself wide open. However I would like to think that most people on this forum are intelligent enough to decipher what I mean. Clearly its not ok to just do whatever you want (although apart of me thinks it would be nice) total chaos and disregard for others would ensue if that was the case, civility would be seriously underthreat.

I mean in the context of pick-up specifically, if a guy see's a girl he likes/wants I say good luck to him if he's willing to take a chance on hooking up with her (through legal means). I for one cannot condone that, in his mind he is taking right action, that is good.

Like I said before, I still don't really know for sure where I stand on this debate. Although I feel of late that I am erring towards if a girl in a relationship is up for hooking up then it demonstrates to me that her relationship is not of such a great significance to her that she feels 100% commital towards it. Perhaps there are underlying issues within her relationship that don't make her feel fully satisfied. In that scenario I think its ok to proceed, but proceed with caution, don't go in like a bull in a china shop have consideration and compassion for peoples feelings where necessary.

One thing I do believe whole-heartedly is if you go around picking up girls in relationships 'just because you can', getting your fill and then discarding them, then you are a cunt I have no respect for that. However if you like a girl who is in a relationship she is not satisfied with and she likes you back (because she is attracted to the true expression of your authentic self, not because you are running game) and you end up hooking up, I don't see a problem with that. I know Nova was in this sort of situation a few months back when he got with his girl so I would like to hear his take on this.

This community teaches some great principles and equally some terrible ones. Often in routine based game techniques like 'Boyfriend Destroyers' and language patterns to try to get a girl to leave her guy for you are lame shit. These sorts of techniques are purely selfish with litte regard for genuine human feelings, the instigator is not entuned with his moral compass whatsoever. This sort of thing I am uncomfortable with and find morally questionable.