I have moved the relevant points of this discussion, started in Retro's 'Risk vs Reward' thread:
I put it here as Anthony correctly pointed out it deserves it's own thread. I'm thinking there's a lot to learn about being Socially Awesome from studying this area.


Link to Johnny Soporno's stuff
http://www.worthyplayboys.com/philos...reasoning.html





Peace

Some important things to note about your first link: They conclude that approximately 1 in 4 women have extra-marital sex over the lifetime of an average marriage, this is pretty high. And, for the following reasons the true number will be much higher. The research only covers married women not other types of commited relationship. Also, it relies upon what people are willing to admit, even in an anonymous study.

An ex of mine cheated on me early in our relationship. A few months later she filled out a magazine questionaire that showed what kind of lover you are. There was a question on faithfulness. She answered that she had never been unfaithfull! No-one would ever see this except me and her, yet she still answered the question falsely. Although this is anecdotal evidence, it certainly illustrates a point. Surveys, even anonymous ones, can not be trusted.

Despite these problems with the research, they still report that in all marriages approx. 1 in 4 women cheat. Which is a lot.

Here is an interesting article based on empirical fact rather than unreliable admission:
http://www.ukmm.org.uk/issues/cheat.htm

According to their research 1 in 10 paternity tests show the child is not the offspring of the supposed father. Again, there are problems in extrapolating from this data to how much infidelity there is out there.

Many men are convincingly deceived that they are the father. Many acts of infidelity do not result in a child being born due to contraception, infertility, the fact that even unprotected sex during the most fertile period in a womans cycle does not necessarilly result in impregnation etc. Many acts of infidelity are discovered, or admitted to without recourse to a paternity test. The ability to extrapolate, from this data, is also skewed in the opposite direction by, amongst other things, the fact that in the majority of cases people only have paternity tests where there is a reasonable doubt regarding a child's parentage.

Still, it's an interestin read.

Your second link, where it is argued that 60% of women prefer the 'breeder' or 'cad' to the 'provider' or 'dad', also relies upon how people wish to be viewed. The participants may well say that they prefer a dad to a cad, I wonder who they are trying to convince. Probably themselves. Also, in both pieces of research, they know this is part of a scientific study and want to present woman-kind in a good light.

Most importantly, the studies that were referenced in the BBC article I posted show clear evidence that this kind of man (breeder / cad) is only prefered during the most fertile period of a woman's menstural cycle. This accounts for 5 days out of every 28. Therefore, we can conclude that approximately only 1 in 6 women involved in the dad vs cad study were in this period of maximum fertility at the time of the study. Meaning the preference for the 'breeder' or 'cad' will be significantly higher during this period.

Here are a few more groovy links relevant to this discussion:
http://www.rediff.com/getahead/2005/jul/07women.htm
http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/OnCall/story?id=1469078
http://www.psychologicalscience.org/...le.cfm?id=1627

So far I am thinking a lot of women cheat on their sexual partners. Significantly more than the 25% of, still married women, who admit to cheating. My own feeling, from what I've read, is that it occurs in more than half of all sexual relationships.

What we can conclude with some certainty is: If you want to prevent your partner from acts of infidelity, you need to be able to fill both roles. You need to regularly remind your partner that you are both a dutiful provider and a sexy breeder. A trully Socially Awesome man will fulfill all female desires. A man for all seasons.

One might even pay attention to her menstural cycle and behave accordingly. Or just not let her out of your sight for 5 days a month


I look forward to your input, Anthony, and that of any other interested posters.


Peace

I'm really liking this post. I'll think more and read more and get back to you in a while -

there is room for optimism here folks, especially if we take control of our behaviour, and act to continually improve - "A trully Socially Awesome man will fulfill all female desires. A man for all seasons." - Agreed.

I think in general there are numerous problems with the research, but we can only make the most reasonably judgements based on the data that we have.

In any case, hopefully a good example for people on here – an interesting discussion not resorting to personal annoyance.

Ok, back into the abyss…

This depends what you mean by high – in my opinion it is low. If 25% is accurate, then in the vast majority of cases it doesn’t happen.

You would expect a higher rate of cheating in non-marital relationship, right? I certainly would. However, finding references for this has proved tricky. In any case, the review article states that “For women, longer primary relationships seem to have a greater correlation with infidelity than do shorter relationships (Forste & Tanfer, 1996)” That is, there is more female cheating in longer relationships than short ones (though yes, there is also problematic research in this area).

Also, add to this the reasons that women cheat. p5 suggests that in women, “there generally appears to be a greater emphasis on emotional connection than for men,”… “women are more likely to fall in love with the partner with whom they engage in infidelity”

Is this what you would expect if you thought that when women cheat they do so with the attractive, masculine male, ie, 'breeder' or 'cad'? To me, it seems more like provider material.

We have to use the best measures possible – inevitably a form of disclosure which may have a degree of error. I don’t follow your conclusion here, and think shuts the debate down too early. If you choose not to believe any kind of self-disclosure, discussion is difficult/impossible. Also, I would need to see evidence for this – though it in turn would be difficult to prove, I bet there are references out there.


My thinking on this – 10% is not a high value given the fact that in Britain, I believe that most reproduction is done by people of low socio-economic demographic (with lower education) – chavs, essentially. From my experience, these people cheat like hell. I would imagine that in well-educated and committed relationships cheating of this kind is much lower. Also, there are evolutionary pressure on women not to do it (as the man can then abandon parental care duties if found out) – these need to be overcome in order to do it (via a cost-benefit system). By being a competent and caring male (in a relationship), I this is unlikely.

Does the suggestions above, about the reasons women cheat, change this (in regards to cheating?)?

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~kruger/dads-cads.html
the full study.

Yes, they didn’t control for menstrual cycle – potentially problematic as you say.

A reference which suggests that women do go for more ‘masculine’ traits when choosing short-term partners.
http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homep...ittInPress.pdf

Again, based on the reasons women cheat, do you still think this so?



Cheers

Anthony

This is exactly how intellectual argument / discussion / debate should work. We both want to fish some truths from the murky waters of research, opinion and pre-conception. I too am hopeful that this thread, and the manner in which it is being conducted, can serve as ...

In other words: Chill out bitches! It's not aimed at you, it's aimed at true.


I'll definitely be giving your last post some thought and will pop my full reply sometime over the weekend.


Peace

I am about to bring the level down by such a unimaginable amount here but ... here's alittle poem about infidelity and menstruation

I fucks em when the husbands there
I fucks em when he's not
I dont really care what time of the month
As long as they're on my cock

Is she cheating on her spouse
Or just having a laugh
I'd rather ponder and spend my time
Trying to make it up her ass

1 in 4 , 1 in 5
6 , 7 or 9
I couldn't really care how many
Cos im as hard as pine

Women women everywhere as far as i can see
I dont care, bf or not as long as he's not fucking me

, sorry ... you can carry on now , ill contribute properly later

Another side story - I spent some serious time (much to my relief I/we closed – yes, we closed!) this weekend/friday with a girl I that I really like - she is cute, interesting, and not british. After lots of sex, and while relaxing in bed, she tells me she has a boyfriend. I look to the wall and see pictures of a guy, some with her and him together - when I was first in the room, I saw them originally but didn't think to ask. She cries a bit and I'm not really sure what to say. She says sorry for not telling me earlier. She has to phone him and does so naked in bed, smiling and flirting with me at the same time. This shit is nuts.

If she would have told me before, would I have continued? Should I continue now? To be honest, as I have already seen her cheat, would I trust her in a relationship with me? – Probably not.

(when speaking to her, I try to find out why she cheated: i) her boyfriend is not satisfying for her – he is too introverted; ii) she liked me, and didn’t want to fuck it up by telling me she had a boyfriend. I admit that this is a small sample size (n=1!))

Life is a shade of grey for me – not black or white. Morality is confusing and subjective.

But “ignorance of ignorance is the death of all knowledge!”

I did say it is a grey area...!
Sounds like to me you after what Retro is looking to achieve - a relationship. I might be wrong. Otherwise she could be just another f-close, end off.

It's fucking hillarious that she tried to blame her cheating on her boyfriend's inability to satisfy her. What bullshit. It's her and her alone. If he doesn't satisfy her she should teach him how or end the relationship. People cheat on their partners for one reason only, because they are weak.

The last 2 girls I bedded had boyfriends too.

The girl I was getting into last night was even out with her boyfriend's sister. She told me this and said 'I'll meet you upstairs in two minutes'.

For me, if I am telling a girl I love her and that the relationship is exclusive, there is no way I will cheat on her because I am strong.

Nobody can decide for you what to do next. You have to work this shit out for yourself.


Peace

Yea - I'm with you K on this one. I wouldn't cheat, and havent cheated.

Legend - I'm not after a LTR, but I can't help enjoying more than the sex. So much more to enjoy, to experience etc. Perhaps you guys can relate to this, who know.... I think I'm getting better at, and more concious at, framing the relationship honestly -