What exactly counts as an IOI? - Pick-up Artist Forum

Cefai · **What exactly counts as an IOI? -** 09-01-2010, 04:23 AM

I ask this question because there has now been a few occasions over the last month or so where it's become apparent that I don't know what makes an IOI or how to read them. So now along with my approach anxiety, I recognise this as another huge weak point in my game. The 3 main occasions are these:

Occasion 1: There's a girl at work that I have been gaming but not with the intentions of closing. When I first read 'the game' I wanted to see if all the methods, theories etc actually worked and she was kind of like my guinea pig at the time. Since then I've continued using this stuff on her without thinking about it and it's now quite natural to me.

Recently she got a new boyfriend and I later found out from her friend that she liked me. I was totally suprised. There was nothing I can think of that would give me clues of this. IOI's or otherwise. Big opportunity missed.

Occasion 2: This was new years. We had a houseparty and invited loads of friends and family. I got absolutely legless and ended up f-closing one of my sisters friends. On one hand this felt great. This is now my second f-close since finding the community and since I was starting to doubt my skills, this was a massive boost for me.

But on the other hand I can't think of a time that she showed interest in me and therefore, like occasion 1, I failed to read any IOI's. At the end of the night it was just me and her awake in the dining room. She suggested we played poker and whoever lost the hand, drank. I kept losing so I turned the game to something else. I told her that if I pick out a king she drank, if not, I drank. Using controlled shuffles and fake shuffles I forced a king out every time. She drank. I went to the kitchen to get water before I went to sleep and she followed me. She hugged me but didn't let go. It wasn't until started kissing my neck that I actually realised she was in to me. I had no clue up until that point.

Occasion 3: Knowing I had a problem with reading IOI's I went out with my friends last weekend to a club. My aim was to look out for IOI's. Two girls my friends knew came up, I started to sarge the hb7. She touched her hair whilst talking to me. She laughed at my dumbest jokes. I used complience tests. When we were on the dancefloor, when I looked in her direction she was dancing like it was just for me, when I looked away she would dance normally and with less energy. I took these as IOI's. One of my friends could see what I was doing. before I could go for a close he told me she had a boyfriend and that they've been in a 5 year relationship. Correct me if I'm wrong but was she not giving me IOI's?

Do you guys have any suggestions/ opinions? is there any books/ articles that can help? Should I even be looking for IOI's? As well as AA, this is something I need to fix big time.

sapmi · 09-01-2010, 09:58 AM

Firstly girls with boyfriends: The amount of times I've seen huge interest from these girls is untrue....I even K-Closed a girl in front of her boyfriend. These girls seem VERY eager. This is extremely common.

As far as IOIs are concerned. Your first priority is to ASSUME ATTRACTION. Don't get hung up on "IOIs" As a guy you are DESIGNED to be attractive to girls. Just by being there and talking to her, if she talks back or just interacts with you ASSUME she is interest.

However, VERY IMPORTANT POINT!!!!!!!! You can misinterprate IODs (indicators of disinterest). For example, if you are talking to a girl, she could say FUCKALL to you, but just be there with her head turned towards you, not speaking much initially. A lot of guys are well put off by this. They interperate this as the girl not being interested at all. If a girl does this to you, it is actually a MAJOR IOI!!

So the overall lesson here is..if she is close to you in proximity and talking to you, you can easily assume attraction, then just chill the fuck out (like you did with that poker girl)

Happy days!

kowalski · 09-01-2010, 10:19 AM

Great post Sapmi.

Here's some other stuff on the forum about this ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by kowalski

I don't pay conscious attention to a girls body language. It can be pretty misleading, ignore it. People sit differently for various reasons including comfort, copying their parents etc. Stop thinking and interpreting. Wondering what this, or that, means. Your unconscious will read her for you, and you will feel if she is responding well or badly. Whichever it is, control your own state and you will lead her into a good state.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kowalski

Don't read too much into the skirt fiddling, or any little bits of body language.

You can easily tie yourself up in negativity.

Unless a girl is clear about her dislike of you, always assume that she likes you and it is on. From this mindset you can advance the set.

I've thought 'This girl doesn't like me' before, it just makes me nervous and want to eject. Afterwards I've thought 'Maybe she did like me, maybe she was nervous because I'm so awesome and she hopes I try to kiss her. Damn, I wish I'd thought that at the time'

Body language is multiply interpretable, so just don't interpret it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kowalski

Body language can be multiply interpreted. Individual gestures could mean a whole range of different things. Unless you want to spend months of your life studying and observing BL you will inevitably apply what you do know dogmatically. This will result in you misreading her as often as you accurately read her, and will put you in your head (which is the last place you want to be when you are talking to a hottie).

The thing is we unconsciously read everyone's body language all the time. Some things you unconsciously pick up on are so small they are beyond conscious observation. There have been experiments where men are shown virtually identical pictures of the same women at different stages of her menstrul cycle and asked to pick which they are most attracted to. More often than not they select the picture when she is at her most fertile, even though they would be unable to point out the difference that made the difference. Similar studies have been done where men smell sweat samples etc. This is how we get a feeling of whether we trust someone, what their current emotional state is, what their relative status in the group is etc. Allow this to happen naturally and trust your instincts. This will enable you to read her sub-communications accurately whilst staying in the moment, living in the interaction.

The only thing I consciously respond to is when her eyes glaze over as she follows me into a sexual state. This is my cue to pull the only trigger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaz

Ignore them. Now repeat after me:

EVERY SINGLE WOMAN I ENCOUNTER FINDS ME UTTERLY IRRESISTIBLE

Let this become your mantra. Live it, believe it. Paying attention to IOI's or a woman's body language will most likely really fuck you up for two reasons. One, body language or more specifically "indicators of interest" are unreliable. Just because she dosent flick her hair or bat her eyelashes dosent mean she does not fancy you. Secondly and more importantly, looking out for these things puts you into your head. You want to be live, you want to living outside your head, in the moment, having an amazing time. Then all the woman WILL be attracted to you.

Like most of the knowledge you learn in this community, knowing about these things is all well and good, but taking them too seriously can make your situation even worse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kowalski

Jaz killed it right there.

Consciously reading body language will fuck you up.

Plus, you have evolved to unconsciously read people infinitely more accurately than you ever could consciously.

Unconsciously you will read micro and macro gestures holistically, this includes things so small you couldn't observe them consciously no matter how hard you concentrated nor could you produce them consciously (e.g. slight variations in smell).

There are links in the thread below to studies that show examples of how we read people at a level that is imperceptible to our conscious observations.

Infidelity and Menstruation

You should trust this evolved 'intuition'. For example I nearly always know when I am being lied to, though can't put my finger on how I know. I just get a feeling that something is not right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaz

A very good point. As the saying goes "Always trust your nose"

Thats EXACTLY the same as myself. I have always had a good intuition for a lier. I can also usually tell with in a minute of meeting someone (male or female) whether we are compatible.

kowalski · 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kowalski

Hey man,

It's hard to say without being there whether this girl likes you as a friend or a potential lover. I know girls who are touchy feely with everyone and a lot depends on how confident she is.

Most of the guys who do well at this sort of stuff assume it is on. You should do the same. Trying to work it out from body language etc. is not worth the effort and gets you right inside your head, which is bad.

So, assume it is on you are the coolest mutha fucka alive why wouldn't it be on. Know that girls are totally open to being attracted to you. They want an awesome guy to come along and seduce them. This means that you don't have to be perfect, all you have to do is not be a prick. Make your intentions and interest clear. How? At an appropriate moment tell her she is sexy / hot / cute and why you think so. Know that escalating and closing are pretty much your responsibility and you should escalate until she flat out rejects your advances or you close.

And, know this, really know it because it is the truth, I swear to you; there is no girl who is out of your league looks-wise. Male to female attraction is nothing like female to male attraction. We predominantly measure value in terms of looks, girls predominantly measure value in terms of a man's behaviour and how others behave around him.

In summary:
You are a badass mutha fucka
No-one is out of your league
Looks don't matter
Don't try to work out if a girl likes you
Assume it is always on

Girls want to be seduced
All she needs is for you to not be a prick
Make your interest clear by stating it
It is your responsibility to escalate
It is your responsibility to close

Just knowing these things, actually knowing them balls to bone, will get most people as far as they want to go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom

K speaks the truth don't bother trying to figure out if she likes you assume it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kowalski

Dude,

You got schooled. Girl totally outgamed you and taught you some very important lessons. Don't read situations, you will get it wrong. Feel your way through situations, you'll be right much more often if you trust your feelings. Don't be thinking about what to do, just do things. In other words get out of your head and into the moment. What does all this add up to, one word ... authenticity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom

No this isn't some mystic thing or nlp stuff, I haven't been on in a while and I thought i'd waffle abit about projecting thoughts into peoples heads. ie thinking you know what someone is thinking.

This is a pretty dangerous thing to do and sometimes it may actually seem like you are right. However because you are thinking a certain thing like "she finds me boring" then you will start to look for more reasons and clam up and act upon those thoughts. Then when she loses interest you say to yourself that she did find you boring.

Up to that point she could have been really into you but because you got in your head and started looking and acting on thoughts that have no real basis just hunches.

This also aplies to presuming thoughts before you've even approached them, like "i'm not her type" or "she'll think i'm weird". If you go up thinking these thoughts you're going to act on them in a negative way.

Any thoughts/comments welcome! I'm not a fucking mind reader!

Quote:

Originally Posted by nova

Good post Tom, and nice to see you back here.

It's the same principle when a guy is on a date and he attempts to work out 'if she likes me'. He will try to watch and listen out for IOIs cues and assume certain things. Unfortunately he will get so caught up in the inconsistencies and focus on the negative or lack of IOIs he will become unsure of himself and fail to escalate things.

Assuming you know what a girl is thinking or intending is poisonous to any man's game. The only assumption I believe in (and you've said this yourself before Tom) is 'assume that it's on'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nova

With this assuming you know what the girl is thinking, you can end up creating your very own limiting beliefs, even if they are just in that moment. You can end up thinking too much and talk yourself out of a potentially positive situation. Even thought the girl is more than likely thinking great things about you!

Like Kowalski said on a thread recently, it is best to 'feel you way around'... as opposed to trying to predict and look out for indicators.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kowalski

Great post Tom.

This is what Sartre calls your being-for-others. He talks about how when others observe us we find ourselves defining ourselves in, what we believe are, the terms of the observer and then behaving in ways to change that definition to the one we want them to have. However, our being-for-others is something we can never know or control. (He also argues that the feeling of shame is a proof of the existence of others completely individuated from the self.)

Therefore, as you can't know or control your being-for-others, let it go. Concentrate on your being-for-itself, how you define you, and behave accordingly. This is incredibly powerfull. Everyone must have at least one experience of this. Where you are so comfortable that you are completely in the moment, freely expressing yourself and had everyone hang off your words, laugh at all your jokes etc. That, in Sartre's terms, is because you've let go of your being-for-others.

Peace,

kowalski

nova · 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cefai

Recently she got a new boyfriend and I later found out from her friend that she liked me. I was totally suprised. There was nothing I can think of that would give me clues of this. IOI's or otherwise. Big opportunity missed.

...It wasn't until started kissing my neck that I actually realised she was in to me. I had no clue up until that point.

All this surprise you are experiencing is a result of you doubting your attractiveness to girls, not a lack of your recognition in this. At the end of the day why should you be looking for the girl to give you approval?

It’s time for you to switch roles in your head and start considering that when you see a girl that you like that you are going to be the one giving her the IOIs… but not in an indicative sense, far from it, by taking the initiative and escalating - so I guess you’d call it EOI/ Escalation of Interest

Oh and nice work digging out those classic quotes Kowalski.

Tom · 15-01-2010, 01:39 PM

Kowalski's like the Dj shadow of PUAforum

nova · 15-01-2010, 02:21 PM

Cold(cut) & Paste.

SnowLeopard · 31-01-2010, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cefai

Do you guys have any suggestions/ opinions? is there any books/ articles that can help? Should I even be looking for IOI's? As well as AA, this is something I need to fix big time.

The quick answer to that is screw looking for IOIs. Go after what you want instead. Which reminds me of a lovely article, because I want to save you guys all the things I´ve been through.

http://www.attractioninstitute.org/h...-with-anything

It goes through how to start going after what you want instead of waiting/looking for IOIs, doing routines or anything else remotely simular.

It is much more rewarding in the end, trust me.

TorchedFrog · 13-02-2010, 04:35 PM

as soon as they look me in the eye its ioi